so i mean i think the detroit region is definitely saveable, and i think if the detroit region comes back, i think detroit city may find its role within that region. >> detroit seems to be a story that's sort of in some ways opposed to your book and your thesis because it is a classic case where people left the city for the suburbs. you know, crime grew, it became a negative spiral. and the well-to-do white middle class and upper middle class just fled the city. they were doing fine, i suppose. in the outer suburbs, but the city itself imploded. >> it's sort of an outdated narrative. that was the path that everyone beat in the '50s and '60s and '70s. you had the white flight and everything. that's not happening anymore. i would agree with jennifer that detroit is in many ways an outlier. but one thing that's interesting about detroit is that it is a great model. planners are looking at it as a model of how to shrink. you know, nobody talks about shrinking in the planning world, but that is the proper response because you need to shrink the city to meet the demands of its inhabitants